0:01
SNI, Surgical Neurology International, which is an Internet journal, and Nancy Epstein is its editor-in-chief, an SNI digital, which is a new, all-video journal of neurosurgery and neuroscience
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that's interactive with discussion, are pleased to present
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the first meeting of the Latin American International Neurosurgery Grand Rounds, sponsored by the Latin American Neurosurgeons, will be held on the last Sunday of every month.
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That's in addition to the Sub-Saharan Africa International Neurosurgery Grand Rounds, which is under the auspices of the Sub-Saharan African Neurosurgeons, and held on the first Sunday of every
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month, now entering its third year. Are pleased to bring to you.
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this first Latin American international neurosurgery grand rounds, which is considering the subject of global solutions to clinical challenges in neurosurgery everywhere in the world.
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This meeting at the first Latin American international neurosurgery group is organized by Jo-Hong, Chokee, Bella Schles,
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and is aided by Astrada Bernard and James Ellsman. Given in the front of an international audience on Sunday, January 25th,
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2026.
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The subject of this first Latin American international grand round session is management of middle cerebral artery aneurysms, a very controversial topic.
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This meeting was organized by Dr. Jo-Hong, Chokee, Bella Schles,
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He's an MD and a PhD, a Peruvian neurosurgeon, researcher, specializing in cerebrovascular and skull-based neurosurgery, interventional neuroadiology, stereotactic radio surgery. And as a PhD
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researcher affiliated to the Department of Neurosurgery in Helsinki, the Helsinki University Hospital at the University of Helsinki. He is now also in charge of the neurosurgery unit of the regional
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hospital in Cusco,
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in Peru,
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and continues this research in oncology, neurology,
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Dr. Wallace Glaz is from Peru, and this is a map of Peru, which you see is on the west coast here of South America, and the circle shows you the highlighted area called Cusco. And this is a
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little background
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on Peru. The name Peru is derived from the catch-all word, implying land of abundance, a reference to the economic wealth produced by the rich and highly organized Inca civilization that goes back
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hundreds of years, and that ruled this region for many centuries. The country has vast mineral, agricultural, and marine resources, and they have served as an economic foundation for its growth
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into the 20th century, in addition to tourism, which has become a major element of Peru's economic development destinations for international travelers include Machu Picchu. which is located on
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this map just 50 miles or so away from Cusco in the mountains in northwest Cusco and it also has museums housing the artifacts of this civilization from ancient times.
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The first guest speaker for the International Grand Rounds of Latin America is Clayver Eduardo Gonzalez Echaviria.
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Dr. Echaviria is a neurosurgeon. He had a fellowship with UHAS Harnestimi in El Cinkey Finland, and he is now working at the Clinical Union in Guayaquale, Ecuador
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On the map in the circle you see Guayaquil Ecuador, this is again on the western coast of South America, and this is a smaller state of Ecuador, which is located south of Colombia and east of Peru.
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Ecuador is a country in northwestern South America, and with one of the most environmentally diverse countries in the world, it is contributed notably to environmental sciences. The first
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scientific expedition to measure the circumference of the earth was led by Charles Reed Marie de la Condimene in France and was based in Ecuador. Additional research in Ecuador by naturalist
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Alexander von Humboldt in Prussia and Charles Darwin in England helped establish basic theories of modern geography, ecology and evolutionary biology.
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cultural heritage, much of what is known as Ecuador now, can be included in the Inca Empire, which we talked about in Peru, the largest polynical unit of the pre-Columbian America.
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The second speaker is Giancarlo Sal Zapata, who is a neurosurgeon and an interventional and a radiologist and he works at the hospital Guillermo Amenara and
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you're going in La Victoria in Lima, Peru.
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And Lima is located on this map, as you see in the center of the circle, right on the seacoast of Peru, which is in the western side of South America. Yes, yes. So yes, I wanted to thank also
6:11
the multiple professors that are in our chat. Professor Alvarie Simonet is there, Professor Elaricari, There are Professor Camilo Contreras from Peru.
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important to represent the neuroscience coming and doing a lot of stuff there. Thank all of you all of you coming here to this first
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presentation, to this first conference. Okay, so maybe I start and yeah, yeah, I remark what you said
7:07
Okay, so we start first. Okay, so we start first At first, I introduce professor.
7:28
He's a neurosurgeon, vascular neurosurgeon coming from Ecuador. He studied in the University of
7:36
Guajakil. And later he went to Mexico to study neurosurgery. Okay, in the University of that National Autonomous Mexico. Okay, and he made a fellowship in a long university that fell out of Sao
7:52
Paulo in 2018. Later also, he made an update of his studies in La Academia, Brasileira de Neurosiro here in May 2024 to May
8:09
2025. Okay, so he will speak about the microsurgical management of the MCA aneurysms and he will present his own cases and we will discuss
8:56
about the historical management of this disease. Okay, for our cleaver, you can start with your presentation. and I will see you in the next video.
9:40
and I will see you in the next video.
10:21
It's a pattern that can be found in the Laterias Riveralnea, and it's a pattern that is used in the other areas, in the other areas, in the multi-platforms. It's a very important section, which
10:39
is a pattern that is used in the Lateria Riveralnea, and it's a very important section. It's a very important section, and it's a very important section. It's a very important section, and it's a
10:56
very important section It's a very important section of Lateria Riveralnea, and it's a very important section of Lateria Riveralnea, and it's a very important section of Lateria Riveralnea. Can I
11:06
interrupt for a minute? He's speaking in Spanish. Some of us don't know that, and I wonder if, Joham, you could just stop and translate a little bit for us, so we know what he's saying as he
11:17
goes along. Is that possible? Okay. Yes, yes, he can so go past some slides, and then I can translate. Now he's basically speaking about the anatomy of the middle several art theory, and his
11:35
figures and his illustrations are based on the professor Rokon's description. So he will detail a little bit about how the configuration of this art theory is going And then he will go to explain his
11:52
personal theories in the MCA analysis. Thank you very much.
11:60
Okay.
12:30
I think that's important, because I think that the
13:04
first time I've been able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be
13:05
able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be
13:05
able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be
13:05
able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to
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Oh, can you just summarize that for us?
13:12
Yes, he's talking about the segments of the MCA territory going there. Yeah, and he's focusing also on the facial area where, well, all this stuff, all this vascular territory can be seen,
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obviously, in the angiography, and also it's important to notice when you are trying to look for the treatment of the vascular diseases in all this territory. Did he study with Dr. Rotan? I think
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he studied more in Brazil, don't they study as part of the anatomy? The part of the anatomy in the university is so powerful. Yeah,
13:60
it's so powerful, it's so powerful, okay. From a professor of ferret charade? Yeah, with ferret charade. Okay, thank you, continue. Okay, I think it's important to know that there's a lot of
14:09
people in the world.
14:30
Yes yeah,,
14:48
basically summer is in the same as before with a Sylvia, Sylvia on an interior point and the Sylvia on a exterior point, and the Hessel Gyros, and yeah, how you can contrast also the angiography
15:01
and the anatomical specimen there.
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In the Sao Paulo, there is an important training center Yeah, an anatomical training center, a surgical training center, led before, but by Evandro de Oliveira. And now it's led by my favorite
15:50
charade. He was his pupil.
15:54
Excellent. Okay. Thank you for watching.
16:53
So, all of these are places where each branch of the middle cellular artery is distributed along the lateral side of the hemisphere. Yeah, so you can see clearly there, and this is especially
17:10
important when you try to recognize about the stroke or some ischemic diseases that you can find out as a neuroascular disease.
17:22
You. He is the.
17:29
the government.
19:09
Yes, so there you can clearly see there is a superannoyant hemorrhage. Yeah, in the interior of the, in the insular territory in the insular system, showing the somehow like the origin of this
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hemorrhage might be an MCA
19:30
bifurcation artery or aneurysm And yeah, when
19:35
you see this type of CT scan, then you can already think that you are facing this type of aneurysm and that treatment, of course, in this case, the surgical treatment will guide you to clip this
19:52
aneurysm, following the natural areas or the natural
19:59
spaces, so there are no doubt his spaces where you can find out the aneurysm.
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And I ask that there is this anatomical specimen where also he's trying to illustrate the location, especially near to the insulin. And yeah, of course, how you can make the pre-surgical studies,
20:23
pre-surgical analysis for treating surgicalities, this analysis. Can I ask a question, though, you want to do in Latin America in Peru, do you use angiography, or do you use CT angiography to
20:31
illustrate the aneurysms? The pre-surgical studies in Latin America, in special, in Tuscasos, two tiresasmas, CTA, they say, Lanjotamoraphia in Thursday, or tiresasmas, Lanjotamoraphia in
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Italy.
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I'll see you in the next video!
22:43
Clara. So yeah, he was explaining that in Ecuador And I think also maybe in Peru or in most Latin American countries, we first use the CTA, the angiotomography. because it's less costly than
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the digital geography. And also it's less invasive and it's quite faster when you ask in the emergency areas, you
23:13
can quickly get the CDA. However, digital subtraction and geography is a bit more difficult and you need more personnel and you need to also prepare for the case. And yeah, we were discussing that
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there are several studies showing that when an aneurysm is over the three millimeters, then there is not a big difference between the CDA and the subtraction and geography. And also on the other
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hand, when you get the CDA and you can make a bone reconstruction like a skull reconstruction, then you can also easily
23:56
develop like a focus approach to the aneurysm, since you know the relation between the vascular aneurysm and the skull bone, the skull anatomic repair in the skull. So there, I think this is a bit
24:14
the advantage of the CTA in front of the digital angiography. When you were working with Professor Ernest Nimi, probably had the largest experience in aneurysms surgery in the world, did he rely on
24:29
CTN geography? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, he also clever was there
24:36
in Helsinki with Professor Ernest Nimi, so we were following his cases and, yeah, they developed that study, telling that over three millimeters, aneurysms over three millimeters, or bigger than
24:47
three millimeters, there is not the statistical difference between the CTA and the digital angiography. And, As well as I am telling you also, we are focusing on the Espenoidal wing just to go and
25:03
focusly open the Silvian future and clip the aneurysm without making a big approach, just a very focused approach to the Silvian future Okay, thank you I am not sure if you are interested in the way
25:25
that I am going to be able to do this. I am not sure if I am interested in the way that I am going to be able to do this.
25:46
I am not sure if I am interested in the way that I am going to be able to do this. I am not sure if I am interested in the way that I am going to be able to do this. I am not sure if I am interested
25:52
in the way that I am going to be able to do this.
26:19
Yeah In his experience, he just took two approaches, the theory on the classic theory on approach developed by Professor Yasarhil. And also another more smaller approach, which is the lateral
26:36
super orbital approach, who has widely used it by Johar and his name. And depending on the case, when there is a big soloing and a big brain head Emma, he better use the terminal approach. But
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when there are cases of un-roptured aneurysms, or with small bleeding and manageable brain-soluance, then he can use the lateral superorbital approach. In two experiences, what are the main
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differences in the internal system? What are the main differences in the lateral superorbital approach? What are the main differences in the lateral superorbital approach? Okay, so we were talking
27:32
also about that there are other minimal-invasive approaches like this tereonal approach or this suprasilial approach, but in his practice, he's basically using the tereonal and lateral superorbital
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approach Oh I'm glad we're those are very nice pictures, very nice I'm glad we're all here. I'm glad we're all here I'm glad we're all here I'm glad we're all here many
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noces, maculino and ciros,
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and ciros.
29:27
You know, Mafre cuente en sexo femmenino.
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Yeah, you can see there the distribution of his cases, 64 patients in seven years Okay.
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And does it, it's my song and
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statistics that's what I'm doing. So, Tim, see exactly. Okay. Okay Well, Joham, is the ratio, the ratio, the ratio, and is it carried out? What are those two terms says, is right and left
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or which one, the ratio 48? Yeah, 48, right, right side. And another is the left side. It seems that there are more right side MCA
30:27
analysis. Why, is there any reason for that? Yeah, maybe it would be an interesting study for starting
31:15
And it looks like, you see, just about equally divided between super orbital there and terraonal, right? Yeah, yeah. He cannot manage with his presentation Ah
31:31
No, no, no, no, no. We are compartmental and romantic Oh yeah, I'll have a study in.
31:41
No, he should show his presentation, he will
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open again
31:52
So, just for Gene, we're very interested in a future what they found there. So it might be interesting to make an anatomical study of the Equatorial population. Maybe there might be some kind of
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dominant right MCA branches or who knows to know better why they have this
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distribution. And in Tuscasos, it's also an aneurysm of rotos or sontambien of rotos.
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So, most patients are presenting with ruptured aneurysm of rotos,
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so which means also that they developed aneurysms and dangerous aneurysms in those fields There might be some kind of flow related to anatomical variations. if this is the correct case, but also we
32:55
must notice that there are other neuroscience in Ecuador that are operating those cases. Okay, so. Okay, so yeah, maybe to make a little bit wider analysis, we would need to join also
33:26
the cases of other neuroscience, maybe this is just showing a part of the
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statistical demography there. Are there other neurosurgeons in front? We can just may select and see if they have any differences between right and left and their experience. Does anybody from the
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audience?
34:10
In my experience, it's not so much. This is three times more, the right side
34:18
At least
34:20
I agree, it's three times more, which is a
34:24
pretty significant one. Yeah, it's
34:29
three times more on the right side. And
34:39
in your series in Helsinki, Johan, you didn't see any difference like that, did you?
34:47
No, of course we at least.
34:52
In Helsinki, as well, Helsinki has the highest rate of MCN reason, but I don't remember that they had reported so big difference between the right and the left side. I don't remember. Thank you.
35:05
Okay.
35:24
In my case, no. There's not so much difference now. Okay. Okay. I assume that Cleber is doing about potentials during surgery, is that correct? Okay, perfect. Yeah, he can continue again.
35:30
Thank you very much.
36:51
or the temporary clipping or transient clipping of the MCA main branch, sometimes might be longer than 20 minutes or 25 minutes. So he noticed that still even though he has a long time closing of
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the middle cell of an artery, he didn't have any kind of
37:14
complication related to this ischemic
37:18
closure
37:21
because they are performing all the time, this neurological monitoring, interpretive monitoring. So it ensures that the patient is not having any kind of issue. Okay. Mm-hmm.
37:50
No, e.
39:08
Yes, in the slide you can clearly see the CTA and also the association or the relation between the aneurysm and
39:17
the sphenoidal wing, which also allows you to perform the serially with a focused opening of the sylvian visual form, the focused clipping of the aneurysm. So in that way, the CTA is very
39:30
important for
39:34
the planning, for the surgical planning Yeah, you can see the solving that
39:41
this type of sufrenoidal hemorrhage is producing in the brain.
39:46
But later also, you can see how the analysis was clipped and everything was done under the microscope. Excellent damages, can I ask him a question too? Does he try to get proximal control of the
40:02
middle cerebral artery before he works in the aneurysm? How does he do that? Yeah, yeah, I think he was commenting in the previous slide that he makes the proximal control even for over 20 minutes.
40:16
For that, he needs the monitoring, the intraoperative monitoring, because it ensures that the patient is not having any kind of this chemical struggle. By the way, there was emergency room,
40:30
medical alert, trauma adult, emergency rooms, medical alert.
42:14
And you're telling us what you said in English now. Yeah, and yes, I was asking that usually we, or classically, we think that five minutes of proximal control is enough. And over five minutes
42:27
you should open again the in one segment to allow the normal basilar irrigation normal bus player irrigation. But we can see in his series that since he is using interpretive neural monitoring, then
42:42
he can also be sure that
42:47
using long-time closure of
42:52
the M1 doesn't let the patient to get some kind of hysteremic stroke. So I think it would be a very interesting to present a series of cases on that concept I was asking him that
43:10
he
43:29
can elaborate maybe some kind of series of that because, When we operate these aneurysms, usually we run
43:38
a lot to get a clippant aneurysm in the shortest time possible. But if really we can't have a more time for planning better, that clipping, the interpretant clipping, then it can be better for the
43:52
patient than for us as
43:54
well Very interesting, Cleaver. One other question, I'm sorry, is do you use any,
44:00
before you do temporary clipping, do you give the patients some barbiturates or some other agents to protect the brain? Uh-huh. Utilisa's a hint is very duroicos, so alguntipo, the American cion
44:10
para, para protece here, and Chadevro aunt is the clippant emperor I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say
44:10
that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am
44:10
not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going
44:10
to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that
44:10
I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am not going to say that I am
44:40
of the Ayidon in Guonotro, American mental health is none other agent, just to monitor for reducing the brain volume. It's interesting because Dr. Suzuki and Japan used to give them semantic and
44:48
vulsants and some barbiturates, all before that he had a, they worked this out in animals. Other people give a propofol or something like that, and it's interesting he doesn't do that, but he has
45:00
monitoring It's very interesting, okay, very good. Okay, so I think we are reaching that time. Can I ask a quick question or? I think Professor Cramps is wanted to tell. I'm a neuro
45:25
anesthesiologist as well, and I practice in Chicago I just wonder What do you use for neural protection? So if I can take Dr. Asman, Quitch, and further, do you use any neural protections like
45:39
hypothermia or during timber or clay board, during surgery like that? Okay, yeah. He was replying that he's not using any kind of protection, extra protection, but since the beginning, he's
45:55
using high levels of manital to reduce the following and to let the
46:02
approach, the surgical approach go well. But during the surgery while you're recording the evoked potentials, do you record the EEG and you make sure the patient is in a blue separation for any
46:14
instance? I think they are doing this neural monitoring to see if the brain activity is working well. So they are evaluating brain activity during the surgery. but they don't use apparently any
46:32
kind of agent. No, it is as ninguna hente protector, no? No, ninguna, ninguna. Dr. Galio just asked you the question is not only a neurosurgeon, but he's board certified in anesthesia
46:45
critical care and pain. He's probably the only person in the world who has boards and four specialties. So we're glad to have you with us. Luis, Luis, do you use any kind of protection when you
46:59
do any risk and surgery and parole.
47:06
Well, you're muted, Leish. The way you're muted.
47:11
Actually, in our cases,
47:15
initially, we use barbiturists. But in the next cases, the analysis is used in proper fold as part of the anesthesia. And they help us with some hypertension - 20 more,
47:34
the medium blood pressure. We ask to increase. And we use that. And we try to use our temporary clip just necessary. No too long. If we need to
47:54
open a temporary clip. And we try to manage the analysis as soon as possible, but we can open the temporary clip, if we are working more than 20 minutes.
48:10
So in my case, we use
48:15
some barbiturist at the initial experience, then no, just increase blood pressure. And the temporary clip, we are always open if we are using more than 20 minutes, this temporary occlusion.
48:30
Excellent I say when
48:34
you were working with YUHA, Ernest Nimi, did you use any
48:40
brain protecting agents or did you just work quickly? Yeah. It was like the anesthesiologists, they have already a protocol. So they were using some agents, but also, intraperatively, for
48:55
example, Prostohedronisme was using adenosine. Yeah So just for making a short argument. cardiac arrest for the clipping, so he was not using
49:09
so much temporary clippings, especially, for example, in the para-clinoid aneurysms, where you couldn't put some temporary clipping before the aneurysms, so he was using cardiac arrest with
49:21
adenosine, which was working quite pretty well, so he was
49:26
producing some kind of 30, 40 minutes of cardiac arrest and the heart, the beating, the heart beating could come fast after that time, but he had this 30 or 40 minutes
49:41
time for clipping the aneurysms, so in his practice he was mostly mostly using this cardiac arrest with adenosine, even four to five times. Of course there are some kind of contract indications for
49:55
this tool, but I believe it's not very excellent, especially if you have a and our root-turate analysis in interoperability.
50:04
So sometimes the aneurysm is rupturing even before you have the proximal control. In those cases to juice adenosine
50:13
is very, very important. And I could see when I came back to Peru, especially to my hospital, I could see that the anesthesiologists are not very aware to use this drag. So we were trying to
50:27
develop a protocol how to juice adenosine
50:31
in the patients because I could see that it's really helpful and can save the life of the patient. Because sometimes when the bleeding is very hard, even you cannot recognize where the bleeding is
50:41
coming for and you
50:45
start just clipping or coagulating whatever you see. And you can have issues even with your section tubes or many things. So really it's a critical part when you have a ruptured aneurysine So I
50:59
would recommend to use a protocol of adenosine.
51:06
So I didn't see you can use from about 6 milligram IV to 32 milligram IV
51:15
it does have a bradycardia or cardiac arrest for seconds and this is good for the surgeon to identify as you know as you stated but for the neuro protection during that time because there is a no
51:32
blood pressure going to the brain no perfusion so while you do monitoring whether you use probable or you use barbiturate or you even use volatile agents the ongoing EEG that you all do you can make
51:52
sure it's a birth suppression because during birth suppression EEG you provide the best protection If you associate this with sub-hypothermia, then you actually do the best you protect. And while
52:08
you're applying the temporary protection, you increase the blood pressure. To me, this is kind of you're not
52:17
overdoing things, but at least it's three basics that provides you with some protection during this.
52:27
Okay, excellent And I think what we found is that there's a difference in how people approach this around the world. And I don't remember reading in the literature anything about this. And I think
52:42
Cleber has done an excellent job because in his institution, if he uses the monitoring, at least that gives him some assurance. And our experience is the same as Cleber's in that you can put a clip
52:56
on and it turns out that there's enough collateral circulation. that it turns out to be safe. Isn't that your experience, Gleever? It's enough, maybe he doesn't understand that. It's enough.
53:08
But there is obviously a different approach to this. And maybe the whole answer to it is that if the patient has enough collateral circulation, he can withstand the temporary clipping. Anybody
53:22
want any Ramsen? I think Professor Acha wanted to tell something Sure. Should we share
53:43
a screen or not?
53:47
Thank you. Thank you, Johan. I think that information about such a long temporary clipping time with monitoring should be taking with a Gaussian, very Gaussian, not all aneurysm require that long
53:56
of temporal clipping.
53:59
Regarding the comment about temporal clipping, I don't think it's done a lot unless
54:09
it for a Chinese in complex aneurysine with remodeling or back pass revitalization, it gave very, very cotron with that information. A proper this section of the ballot and the short term clipping
54:26
are essential For different aneurysms, thank you. Yes, thank you. Thank you. He was commenting that of Professor Acha,
54:51
the video is in Cisterre and will not win at his exción.
57:50
related to the
57:55
malformation. OK. So yeah, he was just showing a case, a combined case of an aneurysm, an MCI aneurysm, and an ABM, also in the same territory. So we were just discussing if it is an aneurysm,
58:11
or ABM related aneurysm. But in any case, he made a - like front of the temporal cranial tummy, maybe a little bit bigger, cranial tummy, also to clip the aneurysm and for resecting the ABM.
58:28
Apparently, the
58:31
salary was smoothly, and he could get the patient in a good manner.
58:38
Oh, yeah.
58:41
If a patient has an aneurysm and an ABM, and then there's a rupture, and he's I'm not sure if they. aneurysm rupture to the AVM ruptured. He still clips the aneurysm first. Is that right? Yeah.
58:55
Yeah. And then also he resected the AVM at the same time. And it's actually an AVM. Oh, okay. Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. Tiness, algomaz, flavor, oh.
1:00:46
out from the plane and he got the rupture at Anderson and they could operate and save the life of the patient. The surgery was also well done. And yeah, I think with this case, with this case,
1:00:58
he's finishing his presentation. Muchas gracias, Dr. Klever, the por favor a companion knows, but must continue to continue to present
1:01:24
the presentation. If you are living in the hospital, then you will not be able to see the loss, the loss causes I think that's a very nice presentation and to discuss some things that are
1:01:29
controversial. And it looks like people around the world
1:01:35
treat the temporary clipping and the aneurysm differently. And we don't know which is better. But obviously it's been successful for Cleaver and other people have done things that have been
1:01:46
successful for themselves. And that's a very nice job. And I think we appreciate your presentation. And what to do if a patient has a ruptured aneurysm and an AVM is I think most people would agree
1:01:59
was to clip the aneurysm and then take the AVM out. Is that a prayer summary? Yes, yes, that's very nice. Thank you very much.
1:02:11
Gracias Thank you, thank you for making that preparation and presenting it. Thank you very much. Okay, so we will continue with our next present day tour with our next guest. So I have the
1:02:25
pleasure to present Professor Giancarlo Sal Zapata from Lima, Peru. He's working. The second speaker is Giancarlo Sal Zapata, who is a neurosurgeon and an interventional the radiologists. And he
1:02:40
works at the hospital
1:02:43
Guillermo Amenara, and you're going in La Victoria in Lima, Peru.
1:02:50
And Lima is located on this map, as you see in the center of the circle, right on the seacoast of Peru, which is in the western side of South America. At Almenara Hospital, in the endovascular
1:03:03
unit of the Almenara Hospital, he's a member of the Peruvian Society of Neurosurgery and a member of the Peruvian Academy of Surgery. So he's also a researcher and he wrote more than 60 publications
1:03:20
in peer reviewed journals. So welcome, Professor Giancarlo Sal, Bienvenido, Professor Giancarlo Sal, Para de Presentación,
1:03:37
Te d'Amos Oazim. Okay, thank you. Great. Thank you, Giancarlo, for the presentation.
1:03:39
Yes, yes, we can see it well. Well, I will start my presentation. Thank you. I really appreciate the invitation, Yochan, for this lecture. Thank you for Professor Osmond, on behalf of the
1:03:49
Soripan Early International, and our professors who are here. I will make the presentation in English in order to make a more fluent presentation and try to finish my slides. So my name is Yankar
1:04:01
Masal, I work in Lima, Peru, and I will talk about the Novazudar treatment of MCA aneurysms, which we know are typically treated with microsurgical clipping. So this is the hospital where I work,
1:04:13
this is a public system, the hospital in Menana, which is a referral center for endovascular treatment in all the country. Peruvian population is about 33 million people, and in Lima we have 10
1:04:24
million people, so we have a large population of
1:04:30
patients. This is the private center where I work, clinic on gramaticana, where we also treat an origins by endovascular means.
1:04:40
So as a brief introduction, clipping is a standard treatment for MCA organisms. For endovascular treatment, we have problems with bifurcations and trifurcations in order because we have to
1:04:49
evaluate risks and probable thrombosis complications or closing some branches of the MCA according to the anatomy. We have to evaluate permeability of the branches and the size and location of the
1:05:02
end of the reason. We, most of the cases we use endovascular advanced techniques which are balloon assisted coiling, assisted coiling, and the vascular flow debaters and intracecular devices,
1:05:12
which we
1:05:14
do not have in parole yet. And we also have to evaluate the presence of perforators and with clinical consequences when we place especially stents in these branches of the MCA. So in the vascular
1:05:25
options that we have, we, as I mentioned before, a coiling, the assisted coiling, balloon assisted coiling, plus balloon plus stent, where we sometimes perform flow-dye birter. web, which is
1:05:37
the intracecular device, web plus balloon in some cases, and intracellular devices like contour
1:05:43
and piconus. Unfortunately, we do not have improve web and contour, but we have piconus in Peru now. So this is the first publication of the novascular treatment of MCA organisms. This is about,
1:05:55
it was published in 2009. This is another trial of MCA comparing and clipping and coiling in the MCA organisms. There are several publications This is a comparison of the novascular treatment and
1:06:08
novascular devices with clipping results in functional and radical outcomes. As you can see, we have also published some papers about the novascular treatment. You can see here, this is in a
1:06:20
peruvia and you're not a neurosurgery. You publish this ruptured MCA, right MCA and everything which was treated first with primary coiling in this case. And in the second time, the patient was
1:06:34
transferred
1:06:36
to the OR and perform a cranial tummy, plus a back question of the matoma. And the patient did well following the surgery. We also published a prognostic scale for
1:06:49
Swaranoid MRS in Peru. We have our own experience in this topic. And we also published this is a very important paper for us because we have elated a tangeria, trains of the vascular treatment of
1:07:01
aneurysms, and we can see here in these graphics, in these pictures that patients and
1:07:06
aneurysms were increased over time since 2013. And we started to treat more patients, especially on ruptured cases. And we used, as you can see in these lines, several other locations,
1:07:22
especially postural communicating and paraplinid aneurysms in our experience. The first hour, hour, May your.
1:07:32
amount of aneurysms are pecan aneurysms followed by paracola aneurysms and we also we can see in this graphic that advanced techniques are used have induced a more frequent time.
1:07:50
We also published in
1:07:59
2022 this experience comparing an institutional experience between clipping and coiling this was between 2017 to 2022
1:08:10
we compared 102 patients 111 aneurysms 62 were treated by microsurgery and 45 patients were treated with endobascular means 80 were females and a previous aneurysm was that is not previously and the
1:08:28
reason was diagnosed in 16 of the cases. Giancarlo,
1:08:35
was there, did you use any, was there any decision process that made you go to endovascular versus surgery, or is it random, or was there some selection?
1:08:48
It depends on the neurosolium who can see the patient. In my institution, 90 of the
1:08:57
annals are threatened by endovascular means And most of them are the rest are treated by clipping, but for example, when rupture aneurysms comes to the emergency, will depend on the treatment
1:09:09
physician which treatment is used. For example, if I hang on the shift, I will try to treat the patient in the vascularly, and there is a colleague that performs surgery, he will clip the patient.
1:09:20
Okay, thank you. So this is a small study we perform, and as a previous presenter said, the right side is more, It's more. frequent in our series, 55, and 82 of the patients were ruptured
1:09:38
aneurysms. And here are the sizes, not important now. But here we have interesting differences between the endobascular group and the sorical group. We can see almost 70 of the patients were
1:09:50
ruptured in
1:09:52
both groups. Almost 80 to
1:09:55
85 were presented at a good clinical outcome admission
1:09:60
And in our case, in the vascular techniques, coiling, simple coiling, primary coiling was used in 45 followed by remodeling, in this case, balloon assisted coiling. In
1:10:13
the case
1:10:17
of the sorical treatment, craniotomy, tarynachronotomy was the most employed in this group. And we used a mean average of three coils per patient. An interpretive rupture occurred in 10 to 11 of
1:10:29
our cases, in the other hand.
1:10:37
On the other hand, in spherical treatment, 20 of interpretive pressure occurred in this small series of 111 aneurysms. So predictors of bad outcome, we found in a multivariate analysis, we found
1:10:45
that high blood pressure and the pre-op or at admission functional status
1:10:52
were determinants
1:10:54
for poor clinical outcome In depth, what we found about interpretive, inter-hospital depth, mortality, we found that admission functional status was
1:11:12
relevant for, was a predictor for every day. So this is our experience. I have to remember that this series is from 2017 to 2022
1:11:26
we perform in most of the cases. primary colein followed by balloon assisted colein, is 10 assisted colein, and 5 of the cases, colein plus balloon plus is 10. We have five cases of
1:11:38
interpretative rupture, mortality 5,
1:11:42
three cases where needed decompressive crannetomy, following the embolization, and two cases performed delayed hydrocephalus. Oh, can I ask you a question, Giancarlo? If a patient comes and he's
1:11:57
in a ruptured aneurysm, let's say he's a grade four or he's in poor condition, would that patient be operated or be treated endovascularly? Or would nothing be done? Hospital in my institution,
1:12:11
patients who are, like you said, doctor, are treated by endovascular means. Yes, in poor clinical outcome, there's no chance for clipping and we symbolize the patient.
1:12:28
Okay, so if there's no chance for clipping and then you go ahead and at least try to embolize them, right? No, no. There are some cases. For example, we do not have the adequate devices or
1:12:39
material for immobilization and the patient stays without treatment. And the following days, the patient recovers from recovers the clinical condition and can be following days one, two weeks can
1:12:52
be clipped.
1:12:54
But only when we do not have some materials or devices for immobilization.
1:13:00
So is that is that part of protocol? Is that part of protocol in your unit? That the patients with a poor hand heist or poor or federation
1:13:14
scale,
1:13:16
they go directly to the endovascular treatment? Yeah, that's a protocol. We have to, in my hospital, we have two units, It's the endovascular unit and the microsoretical unit. microsortical
1:13:27
unit, they
1:13:29
have the physicians, and when a patient comes to the hospital in a poor clinical condition, they do not read the patient, and they send the patient to us, and we evaluate the case. If we are able
1:13:40
to perform a position, we do. And if we don't have, for example, material, for example, we have to place a flow diverter in some selected cases, we need to
1:13:51
take, we need to administer dual antibiotic therapy to the patient, we validate that, we validate the situation, the clinical condition, we try to treat as soon as possible, or three days
1:14:03
following, if we need
1:14:06
to place some stents in these cases.
1:14:10
There is some selection, you'll have, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about
1:14:21
the vascular micro, or sergeants in your unit. Do they agree with the protocol or Is there some kind of emergency cases that can go to the surgery in
1:14:33
the nights or something like that? The protocol was approved by them, not by us. So they decided not to treat patients in a poor clinical condition.
1:14:46
Yeah, we did
1:14:51
not participate in that protocol, but we have to treat the patients So all the patients, we do not exclude any patients despite the clinical condition. Okay. So is, you know, Ham, is he telling
1:15:01
us that, I'm just wondering if there are any patients that they would not treat with endovascular approaches?
1:15:09
Yeah, do you have some case that is not included in the protocol treatment
1:15:17
in the muscular protocol treatment? So obviously there are exceptions. I will show some exceptions at the end of the presentation, cases when we
1:15:24
do not have, for example, the materials, or we think we will do harm to the patient if we treat endovascularly and we send the patient to a microsurgical clipping where we have cases. It's
1:15:37
interchangeable. OK. OK. Yes, please continue. Continue. So, on adequate occlusion, we found, following the MC Anderson treatment,
1:15:50
76. Good clinical condition using the modified Rankin scale The scale is 75, which is high. Our residual net in our experience is 5. And the Raymond Roy 3A, we
1:16:02
follow in the legislation, is almost 20.
1:16:06
So, I will show you some cases treated with most of the technique we have. As I said before, we do not have intracecular devices, like web, artist, or other intracecular devices, which are used
1:16:19
in Europe or America, but we try. We have a lot of experience using balloons, balloons, coins, and flow diverters, in this case. This is a six-year-old female with a rupturing right MCA and the
1:16:30
reason that you can see. The patient was treated in their good face. We
1:16:35
use balloon-assisted coin, and you can see this large, this
1:16:40
plastic aneurysine in the right MCA. We, you can see here we place the balloon. Let me, excuse me.
1:16:48
I will show you better this
1:16:52
Yeah, you can see here we place in the frontal branch the balloon. This is another angle here.
1:16:58
And we place the balloon, we inflate the balloon, and then we put some coins inside. The coins used in this case are a PC 400 coins, which are special coins used for this type of aneurysines,
1:17:09
which are large. And we use a lower number of coins, instead of normal coins, which are thinner. And we use a more amount of coins. So you can see here that I could adequate occlusion of the
1:17:24
aneurysm using the valuminesis coin technique. And here is the control with the patient analyzed. We try not to play sustains in a good phase or the first day, the first week of MRS in this case,
1:17:38
because we know we can have some complications. I will show some complications later in the presentation, obviously. And this is the final control of 3D reconstruction. This is a video where I can
1:17:48
show you the same name here and everything you can see both branches and the analysis. We use, again, a balloon assisted covalent. We found out how to pay the pollution of the aneurysm SAC and the
1:17:59
final control. You can see the exclusion of the aneurysm in this case with patterns of all the branches. And the 3D reconstruction, you can see the permeability of the branches in this case.
1:18:11
Another unwrapture aneurysm, bifurcation aneurysm. As
1:18:15
you can see, you will see in the cases I will present. I will present, there is always a trend of the
1:18:24
underisms that is not always at the center, at the middle of the MCA vitrification, or there is always some displacement for one branch or the other, and we have to select where to place the stand
1:18:34
or the balloon. In this case, we use again, in this case, we don't say sorry to place
1:18:54
the stand, we use a balloon, we do trimodeling, balloon assisted coiling, you can see here, we place the balloon across the neck, and we put the microcatheter within the aneurysm sac, and you
1:18:56
can see now how coils are placed with the balloon inflated, sometimes we inflate the balloon, sometimes there's no need to inflate the balloon because of the shaping of the coils inside the aneurysm
1:19:03
sac, and you can see here how is when we remove the microcatheter within, remove the microcatheter from the aneurysm sac and the aneurysm is treated. You can see this images how well occlusion of
1:19:17
the aneurysm
1:19:18
most important for us is to see the patterns of the branches in this case, I think it's a tri-frication in this case. So we need to evaluate the patterns of the branches of the MCA. At the end of
1:19:37
the procedure, you can see the three reconstruction again with patterns of the branches and the patient did well at following the molestation. This is a rupture case. You can see most of the cases
1:19:45
are complex with wide neck aneurysms or a more false morphology of the aneurysms suck. You can see here there's a branch which arises from the aneurysms suck comprises the aneurysms suck and in one
1:20:01
this rupture aneurysms you can see the bleed in the cities come here and this is a wide neck aneurysms you can see here and we decided to
1:20:10
again in a good phase we tried three with balloon assisted coiling you can see the aneur and the road mapping here on the right side, how I place the micro-cathletes within the aneurysm. And there
1:20:25
is a balloon which is placed in the superior branch, or frontal branch of the MCA. We don't, in terms of entomascular embolization, in this location, which is complex, we don't have to be afraid
1:20:39
of navigating two micro-cathletes, one for staying, one for balloon You have to do this quite as simple, as simple as possible. And you can see here in the right side, the
1:20:54
aliquite occlusion of the aneurysm with the patency of this branch, which is here. And we show the result, this is the pre-op and this is possible decision with, we can see here the patency of the
1:21:05
branch, which was arising from the aneurysm sac. This is an rupture of this patient,
1:21:13
We treated the rapture aneurysine and we knew the patient had another aneurysine in the left side. So there was no bleeding in this side of the brain. You can see this has more aneurysine, wide
1:21:24
neck also aneurysine, which has the neck a little bit more in the frontal branch. You can see in these images. So we decided in this case, to following the treatment of the rapture aneurysine, we
1:21:38
placed an asymmetric tube We administered dual anti-plated therapy in this case as perin plus clopy oil. And we made stainless-assisted coiling in this case. We selected this branch for placing the
1:21:52
stand in the right in the left side. And you can see here that I am
1:21:57
placing the micro-catheter within the
1:22:01
aneurysine sack. And first, we performed the editing technique or the yelling technique in this case. I deployed the stand across the aneurysine sack and the front of the branch. And then we play
1:22:13
some chords, small chords, within the aneurysine, and this is to find a result. You can see here, the exclusion of the aneurysine in this run, and the patient was treated in two aneurysms, two
1:22:24
meters here, several MCA aneurysms at the same time. This is, these are some of the boundaries of the emboluscular endovascular treatment. We can treat one to three aneurysms at the same time.
1:22:35
This another rupture aneurysine, the same in the right side. You can see another branch arising from the aneurysine neck And in this case, we perform all the coiling. We decided to do coiling,
1:22:45
primary coiling in this case. And this is the final result. You will see the patterns of this branch from the temporal branch in this case with another pet operation of the aneurysm, the resolution
1:22:56
of the aneurysms, excuse me. And the CT scan is OK in this case. This another case, we received this patient. She came from a province from Peru. This time is more, my professional analyst in
1:23:17
this left MCA, and you can see here that she had a bleeding, a small bleeding, which was detected on CT scan. We performed, this is another, we did this
1:23:27
treatment with another angiogram machine. So we did the Bessel analysis in this case, and we placed a flow diverter because the bleeding was two weeks previously, I saw the patient So there was no
1:23:41
bleeding in the actual CT scan, and we decided to place a flow diverter. The patient was under dual antipathy therapy. So the treatment was straight forward. We selected this branch to place the
1:23:55
flow diverter. We used a P48 flow diverter, which is a German device. And you can see in the immediate retention contract rotation, which is a good design for us which means the underassing is
1:24:10
transposing.
1:24:12
Can I ask you some more questions, Giancarlo? Yeah. And Yoham, Yoham, this is these aneurysms he's showing. Our aneurysms you would have treated surgically at probably in Cusco and certainly in
1:24:26
Helsinki, right?
1:24:40
I guess maybe he said, it's like he's frozen, yeah,
1:24:44
so I guess the point I'm trying to make John Carlo is if they're there, which is the point of this discussion today, is these are aneurysms that could be treated by endovascular means, which you've
1:24:55
shown elegantly, and they can also be treated surgically, isn't that correct? Yeah, of course, both the nicks are
1:25:06
okay for the patient. It depends on the operator, depends on the institution, I think. And in parts of the world where they don't have the endovascular approaches, the surgical approaches could
1:25:17
be used and could be very successful. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. That's correct. I started my presentation saying that,
1:25:27
what you've shown here is that obviously they could be treated endovascularly.
1:25:33
some of them are complex and it's more difficult to to quail them. Is that correct?
1:25:41
It will depend on the experience of the parietal. I think most of the cases are complex, but when you have, for example, a balloon or a or you have a stand that can make you can simplify the
1:25:53
treatment and these cases can be done successfully by endovascular means Okay, and when you get your patients for endovascular treatment of middle-ceremal aneurysms, do most of the patients present
1:26:09
immediately or do they present a week or two later? It will depend. We have both the scenarios. Some patients come in the same day of the bleeding in cases of retroenterisms. Some patients are
1:26:24
transferred from other institutions one week later, two weeks later, and for us.
1:26:32
That's, it will depend on every case. Single case, it's, it's, we have a lot of scenarios in this, in our institution. At your phase, delayed phase, one month later of the bleeding, maybe.
1:26:46
We, I see patients in the office, for
1:26:52
example, following two months of bleeding. It's very variable in our country. Okay, no, it's okay Hi, and Luis, do you have any vascular approaches where you are, or do you do mostly surgery?
1:27:09
No, mostly surgery. I will induce flow deberter for this such simple analysis. It's not a complex one. This is small, but it's not a complex one.
1:27:23
So if you have a complex aneurysm, how do you approach that?
1:27:31
No, the size is very small. But
1:27:37
I
1:27:39
will use a surgical, micro-surgical technique for the same reason. And it looks like that, Giancarlo could use my triad-interventional approach to see if that would work. Is that true, correct
1:27:54
Giancarlo? In this case of this MCA in
1:27:59
the rhythm In an aneurysm case, is there aneurysms you prefer to treat endovascularly or do you try to treat them all? I only do endovascular treatment. Okay, okay,
1:28:13
fine.
1:28:15
Did Johan come back or is his transmission stopped? Yes, sorry, sorry, I had connectivity issues. I am here Okay, so in your experience, Johan, obviously you can treat these. You can treat
1:28:31
these with surgery, is that correct? Yes, yes, usually, of course. Also, that is something that we should hour in our countries because not always we have the in the vascular unit. The results
1:28:45
are great, what Giancarlo is showing. But sometimes, especially inside the country, we must solve those issues by microsurgery
1:28:55
Yeah, it's just the fact that neurosurgery is technology dependent, specializations. So if we don't have enough resources, or if we don't have enough
1:29:09
infrastructure for attending this end of vascular procedures, we should follow the microsurgical
1:29:19
techniques. OK, Giancarlo, you wanted to finish your presentation Tell us what the results and complications were. OK, this is what the warehouse is. list. This is another MC aneurysm, the
1:29:32
left side. You can see this was treated with a long assisted coiling again. So this is the final result, the exclusion of the aneurysm. And this is an N1 aneurysm here, treated by primary coiling
1:29:43
with
1:29:45
another coaglusion. And this is another flow diverter in this case. We placed a flow diverter, a P48 flow diverter in the M2M1 segment of the MCA in the, this is a right side aneurysm.
1:30:01
And this is a complication. This is a complication we had. This is a 45-year-old male with a rupturing MCA aneurysm. This case was three, four years ago.
1:30:11
We treated, this patient came with two days of bleeding. We, because of the white neck, we decided to put a stand. The patient was under dual anti-plated therapy. You can see here
1:30:26
the final control was adequate, it was okay, but we made another control and we saw this. There was a trombus in the MCA, this is a interpretation, interpretive complication, and we used
1:30:41
intra-arterelactylis
1:30:44
RTPA, so we were a little bit more comfortable with this result, but again, the patient had a trombus, this thing was occluding, so we made here was a trombus, an inter-stain trombus, we tried
1:31:01
to make a mechanical trombectomy, there was a disaster this case, but we opened again the MCA, so we made a run, we saw interpretive leading, you can see here, so we had the two wars
1:31:17
complications, trombus and leading interpretive leading, so we placed a balloon within the stand, we inflated the balloon, for some minutes, I don't remember how many minutes there was. many
1:31:29
years ago, and we made a run and there was more bleeding, more bleeding, maybe a ruptured neck or the artery, I don't remember. So this was the bleeding stop itself, this was the final result,
1:31:44
but the patient already died. And this is the final case, I would present, this is a ruptured MCA aneurysm, right? MCA aneurysm, you can see here a little bit of bleeding, the patient had next
1:31:58
stiffness and this is the aneurysm in the CT engine. And we performed a
1:32:06
3D reconstruction, we did it at the moment, we did it, did not have any stains, balloons, we didn't have
1:32:14
materials, so the patient was transferred to clipping and this was the result. So this is as I mentioned before, limitations, we do not have in intracellular devices, web or contour in our
1:32:25
country. So the divergence should be selected in some cases. We have pecconos, but we don't have cases yet.
1:32:33
Well, this is some conclusions in the bus flight treatment of MCA analysis. This is a practical option. We've adequate occlusion and more immortality. We need - Johan mentioned we need a lot of
1:32:45
technology and well-trained staff of interventionalists to perform these procedures
1:32:52
Of course, clipping is a - will be an option in cases we do not have a technology, material devices, or stuff for realizing performing these cases So. we have to
1:33:07
consider both the nicks in this case. Thank you. A
1:33:13
very nice job about Giancarlo. Excellent, excellent Giancarlo, excellent presentation, excellent cases Yes, and yeah, I don't know if in the audience.
1:33:27
And we have some questions
1:33:30
when you do these cases, do you actually do it in the operating room when you have a hemorrhage? Have you ever been able to save and do like open craniotomy right away or you have to take the
1:33:45
patient to the operating room? What is your backup?
1:33:55
We have a lot of exclusive neuro angiosuit for these cases. In cases, we have some complications, for example, with the need, the compressive connectome, the patient is transferred immediately
1:34:05
to the operating room, which is in other areas.
1:34:10
Have you lost the patients in this transfer or? No,
1:34:18
the operating room is not as near the angiosuit, so these patients are transferred in the moment, at the moment.
1:34:28
Nowadays, which patients you regret that you did endovascular and you wish you did open surgery
1:34:37
in the middle of the respiratory? It depends on the case. Every case is individual. Most of the cases in my institution are performed by endovascular means some others.
1:34:51
a lower proportion are treated by microsorical clipping, but it will depend on the case. Most of the patients can be treated in the vasculomy with low-divertors, intracecular devices nowadays, but
1:35:04
it will depend on the case. Obviously, we
1:35:08
have to have all the devices because if we try to perform embolization, I don't have a wire or I don't have a microcatheter, the patient will not do well So it will depend on multiple variables in
1:35:23
order to treat the patient. But in my opinion, most of the MCA organisms and other locations can be treated in a safe way by endovascular means when you have all the devices available and you have a
1:35:37
personal trend. And the two questions for you now, anesthesia wise, do you do sedation or do you put them to sleep? And what is your philosophy, what is your protocol regarding anticoagulation?
1:35:52
The patients, all the patients who underwent embolization treatments are under general anesthesia. They're all under general anesthesia. And we asked the anesthesia lawist to manage adequately the
1:36:08
arterial pressure. Once the aneurysm is occluded, we asked for the anesthesiologist to raise the arterial pressure more than 100 milligrams, millimeters of mercury, in this case And the antiplatid
1:36:22
therapy we use when always, when we play, sustained in a patient, in an elective surgery, in a scheduled surgery, the patient is under dual-antipatid therapy five to seven days before the
1:36:34
intervention. We've aspirated 100 milligrams, ticagrelor, brelinta, 90 milligrams twice a day and in cases of interpretive. We decide in the moment, in a patient without anti-platulate
1:36:51
interrogation, we place an asymptotic tube, and we administer a loading dose of dual-anthroplated therapy, 300 milligrams of aspirin, and 180
1:37:03
milligrams of ticagrel, or at least 30 minutes from an hour per viewer to place in a stand.
1:37:10
And then when you have, I know there is controversy in this, when you have an expanding hematoma
1:37:18
and what do you do first, you can embrace the hematoma or take care of the aneurysm. It will, I presented that we published a single case, we treated a large aneurysm and the patient got
1:37:31
transferred there for the hematoma evacuation, but in these cases, I think a microsurgical reception is adequate because you leave the aneurysm and you have a hematoma in a single intervention.
1:37:46
And when you have hydrocephalus, do you put an EVD before you clip the end, before you treat the aneurysm endovascular? Yeah, that's a good way. Or
1:37:55
you put the EVD after. That's a really good question. Depending on, depending, we always evaluate the CT scan. If we see the patient has a hydrocephalus, in
1:38:07
this case, we place a young external chant. Or for example, this is not the topic we have a posterior fossa aneurysm or posterior fossa IVN. We know the patient will perform hydrocephalus. We all,
1:38:20
sometimes depending on the case, we place a chant, obviously. And if we know or we suspect that we are going to use in MCN or in other things, we are going to put the patient under dual antiplatid
1:38:33
therapy. We place the chant previously in order to avoid a more tragic complications of placing a chant, of course.
1:38:41
So, when the vision comes like this, like in what we have nowadays, we have two different hospitals in Illinois. One hospital that all the aneurysms, regardless, goes to the endovascular surgeon
1:38:56
and the
1:38:59
endovascular tricoiling and all of that. Never say no.
1:39:02
And there is another hospital that there is a committee to evaluate, not just a committee like a group, and they say, what is the best for this patient? How you try as your patients in your
1:39:15
husband? I'm sorry about all these questions. It's just that you're a bit to me like you're doing a fantastic job and you're the leader in your field, which is great to see all your contributions.
1:39:26
So how do you do that in your hospital? In my hospital, we exceptionally perform a committee to evaluate the case, exceptionally in, very complex cases, giant aneurysms from both aneurysms,
1:39:42
rupture aneurysms large. It's not
1:39:48
a common meeting, a common issue in my hospital to perform a committee and evaluate that exceptionally perform. As I said before, the patient is treated according to the clinical condition because
1:40:01
patient and their poor which are patients with poor clinical condition are not treated by microsurgical clipping, for example. All patients with high hands or which are in coma for example, or that
1:40:18
kind of patients are not treated by clipping. The other, that's a protocol that the microsurgical clipping unit has approved. And the other contraindication for them for clipping is that the
1:40:31
patient which is in the basso spasm period.
1:40:36
between the third day and the seventh to 10th day, they try not to touch the patient because of the edema we will perform. So we have, that's why we treat a lot of patients because many patients
1:40:48
are not treated because of
1:40:51
these issues. I am saying now, poor clinical condition, go to endovascular embolization. And patients between a vast spasm period, they do not touch the patient. So they are transferred to us,
1:41:03
we perform the embolization That's why we have a lot of patients in all the locations. MCA, posterior force, para-cline, it's a PICON. So that's why we perform a lot of cases by endovascular
1:41:14
therapy. Obviously, we have to select the patients, because in a good phase, it's not - we try not to use the stents, because we know there's going to be complications. There are going to be
1:41:24
trombones, or as I shown before, the case But.
1:41:39
I don't think we may have - That's the reason why we - It's just an outstanding job. And obviously,
1:41:44
you've done such a superb job there that people are referring cases to you. And you've done an excellent job. And
1:41:52
it's obvious you can't be successful with all of them. It's trotted. Did you have some - Professor Acha wanted to have a comment. Yes, please. Professor Acha, please.
1:42:07
Oh, oh, thanks. In Giancarlo, thank you. Thank you for the excellent presentation. In my opinion, the decision-making process for this aneurysm should prioritize a long-term durability and
1:42:24
branch potential In my opinion, my historical clip-im continues the high level of precision. in draining hands, I believe that each MCA Anderson should be personally establishing the best strategy
1:42:42
for each case, complex, large, trombocytosis, with bridge originating from the SAC or regularly, a policy, a recurine in our public hospital, which serve almost 60 to 16, 17 of the
1:43:09
country population, the economic reality due to the high cost of end-of-acular supplies, means that not everyone does send opportunity. In
1:43:24
2026, we are achieving obliteration that 95
1:43:31
of the population is not the same as the population. with a definitive solution and single procedure.
1:43:36
In our practice, we use different strategies such as a minimal invasive, mini-terminal approach, video angiography with ECG
1:43:57
of fluorescein and geography, neural monitoring, reverse-clearization bypass and cage will require. In conclusion, I believe that clipping is not just an alternative, it remains the goal standard
1:44:03
for the anatomical reconstruction of aneurysm. Thank you. Johan, thank you, thank
1:44:10
you. One other set
1:44:13
of questions, Rajeun Carlo, is what's the cost of the clipping and the, I mean the coiling, what is the cost of the devices and how does the cost compare to surgery in Peru?
1:44:30
Obviously, an immobilization is more expensive than a clip-in, sorry, but it's not an amount, I don't know, maybe it depends on the material you would use because, for example, phlogs and
1:44:42
vertos are very expensive here. But I don't have the amount, but obviously an immobilization is more expensive. But in my hospital, we have a very large
1:44:58
designation of money for these devices.
1:45:02
Most of the time we have all the devices we need to perform these treatments, so there's no contraindication in our unit because we have everything we have microwide, we have co-op, we have stems.
1:45:15
Sometimes we do not have the devices because we use too much and we do not the
1:45:21
devices because of too much using, but in general. And we have everything to try to treat these patients, as I said before, because most of the data transfer from the micro-curriculum unit of my
1:45:36
hospital, and we have to solve the patients. And I agree with Dr. Rachael, micro-curriculum and bypass all these cases, yeah, we transfer. I am not saying all the patients are treated in my
1:45:48
unit. Most of them are treated, of course, because of what I said before, but there are cases that need bypass, and we send the patient to bypass There's no problem with us. It's interchangeable,
1:45:58
as I said before, and sometimes they send us patients for elective and hospitalizations of MCA organisms. That's how we work in my institution, and the results, I think, are very good. Excellent
1:46:10
job. That is a great comment that, yeah, it seems there is an eternal discussion about if we be treated in the vascularly or by surgery or by microscope. Since I was also with UHAD, there was a
1:46:29
big fight against these two fields. But science is showing that you can get
1:46:37
the result by two ways. And the two ways are apparently good if you know how to do and if you have enough tools for doing those. I think both strategies are not excluding each other
1:46:54
And despite of that, I think both should be use it properly. I was just wondering maybe in the case of, I wanted to ask that is to Giancarlo, in the case of an emergency or in an emergency case
1:47:09
when you have like bleeding or something like that, of course, probably you will go first for
1:47:18
operating the bleeding And after that, you will make the endovascular treatment of the aneurysms. I guess this will be the strategy. And maybe in the case of ruptured aneurysm with a high
1:47:32
intracellular bleeding, we enter and we operate and we take the bleeding and we clip the aneurysm as well. So I think
1:47:45
both techniques and both technologies are welcome to treat our patients And obviously in the vascular treatment we require more tools, more technology and it's a little bit more expensive. And
1:48:02
probably many places still in the developing countries are not yet used to those technologies or used to
1:48:14
spend these manis in the patient So, but
1:48:20
I think regarding the technical or the operative technique of both procedures. they are showing that the aneurysms can be treated by these two ways without any issues. Excellent summary, Yom.
1:48:33
Strata, do you wanna make any comments on this? Sure, I think excellent presentation, Giancalo. I think I wanna say that
1:48:44
it reflects the evolution of my practice. I trained to do microsurgical treatment of aneurysms, and that's how I did it But honestly, it evolved to the point after I recruited one of my former
1:48:58
residents who trained in endovascular surgery. We developed a system where the endovascular surgeon had the first right of refusal for a patient coming in with an aneurysm. And if she thought that
1:49:17
they could treat it with the endovascular approach safely, then we did that if they had a hematoma that that was life threatening, then we would go to surgery, evacuate the hemotoma and treat it
1:49:31
microsurgically. And then I had my own personal
1:49:37
preference about it. And then I thought, well, if I had a ruptured aneurysm and I thought it could be treated safely and device clearly, I'll refer that than having the creating out of me,
1:49:49
although that's how I customarily treated aneurysms. Yes Okay, I had to like one small question. That's a very good point. I have one small question for all of you and how do you think about this
1:50:05
hybrid
1:50:14
neurovascular sergeons? Do we need, the question is simply why there should be just one endovascular sergeon and one microsurgical sergeon if the vascular sergeons should make both procedures and
1:50:23
should cover the. rationally to choose what the best to do. So nowadays, like in Helsinki University Hospital, the fellows or the residents or the fellows, the vascular fellows are going to do
1:50:37
both. Also, microsurgical and endovascular treatment of the diseases. Yeah, and I think in many different countries, that is the tendency. So we might get a more global neurovascular surgeons
1:50:52
that could decide and could make protocols according to the best of their knowledge. Excellent point. Yeah, I would like to intervene. I would say that it's the same in soccer teams. And I choose
1:51:05
soccer for the Latin American audience. It's the same if we ask the goalkeepers to train how to shoot penalties. Yes, it is important to shoot the penalty when everybody tried and the score is tied.
1:51:19
But the goalkeepers to be a goalkeeper And therefore, what has to be a foreword. So I think that the volume of, of, of experiences, it is, uh, necessarily to focus in one or the other. No,
1:51:32
but they, um, but you, do you, um, there is two things. First, you, you, you, you think you can, um, to be good in both, but really, really, you either good in surgery, or you're good
1:51:48
in the vascular, you're going to be biased to one or the other That's right. I know that you are a good, good, deeper, the other one. And of course, you, you need to be familiar with the other
1:51:59
one, but it's easier for the vascular, for the endovascular to become a cleeper than a cleeper to become an endovascular. 100 because the, the, you know, no, no, and I remember when they asked
1:52:13
me to do a fellowship in endovascular, I said, no, I'm a surgeon I need to do open and do and see and all. There was one case back in 1980s.
1:52:24
that Dr. Osman did. And at that time, we have Dr. Dubran, he recruited him, the famous, wonderful man. And we had a difficult carotid artery aneurysm, and actually was done with both. Part
1:52:40
of it was done with endovascular, and one part of it was done with direct with surgery. I didn't hear comment about this Are you
1:52:53
parallel from - do you have cases that you actually do both in the same case?
1:53:00
Part of the aneurysm you do endovascular, and the part you
1:53:06
do clebate? Usually it happens that sometimes you might have a re-bleeding. For example, it might happen that you can coil an aneurysm, and maybe an incomplete coil in can. can produce a
1:53:21
re-rusture and then you must enter to operate that case, or in the opposite side. Also, it might be that one aneurysm was partially clipped and then it produced a re-bleeding and then go, it might
1:53:37
be a complex case that requires another device like flow debris or like a stench, and then you must do that. So, but what usually is done, in all times, what was usually done is that you were
1:53:52
operating the aneurysm and with the endovascular surgeon was going with a catheter by the femoral artery and he was doing like
1:54:06
the interpretive angiography for demonstrating if there was some occlusion of
1:54:14
a normal vessel So before the. The video angiography, interpretive video angiography existed. So many, many sergeons were performing the clipping under angiography view, interpretive angiography
1:54:30
view. But nowadays, I think the video angiography with the endocioning that offers the
1:54:38
microscope. So allows you to see if the branches are free or not. But in all times, yeah, it was done in that way That you had to go with both the end of vascular and the clipper and the operatic
1:54:52
sergeant and do like interpretative angiography to see if there is not any kind of complication. Let me ask the audience for a second here. Sandra Guizband, you were anxious to come to the meeting.
1:55:05
Is there any questions you wanted to ask?
1:55:25
Thank you, thank you,
1:55:30
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you
1:55:35
Under Camillo, Contreras, do you have any thoughts about this? Any questions?
1:55:43
Okay, and not Professor Rosman, it's okay with all the presentations and all the explanations that have made the speakers. Thank you for this excellent meeting Thank you for your comments, sir
1:56:03
Camillo. Yes, I think we should congratulate you on whether you've done an excellent job of putting together this first session. I think all of the audience, all professors who came here,
1:56:15
thanks to all of the audience. Really, this was a very nice first meeting, and yeah, we are impressed by the participation of all Latin American sergeants did and yeah I think in
1:56:31
the future. we will have a better presentations or more presentations. And yeah, thanks, Giancarlo, thanks, clever. You're doing an excellent job. Last week, Giancarlo campaigned at me in
1:56:47
Cusco. Two weeks ago, we made the first embolization of a giant
1:56:54
ABM in a city. So it's his, a great man and a great sergeant and then the bachelor's sergeant. So thank you Thank you so much. Thank you, Carlo. Thank you. Thank you. You as a part of the
1:57:06
Ecuadorian society. You did an excellent job organizing the last Congress who that joined many of us in your country and you serve it as a quite nice person there.
1:57:22
So if you'd like to comment. Luis, any thoughts before we close here? Yum, ach shawlim.
1:57:37
I recognize very nice presentation of Dr. Giancarlo and Dr. Clever, but I would prefer to have long-term evolution of the patients with
1:57:47
endopascular techniques. I would like to know how the ranking score, the modified ranking score, in a long-term evolution Yes. Because it's worldwide recognized that the middle-to-the-art
1:58:06
territory is best managed by micro-studio-con-makes. Yes. Excellent comments. Jay Morgan, any thoughts that you want
1:58:22
to say after seeing all this? What's your thoughts? You know, I find it interesting. I'm in Reno, Nevada, and we're in a sort of isolated place in the mountains We have two interventionalists.
1:58:31
And they do majority of the aneurysms. We do have some squall-based surgeons here, and I used to do aneurysms as well, but it's completely changed in this area. And our results have been good, I
1:58:44
would have to say. All right, very, very great presentations. Learned a lot, thank you so much. Cleaver, I wanted to ask you one other question before we left. Do you have neuro-interventional
1:58:56
people in Ecuador or
1:59:01
do that in some places in the world they don't exist? Do you have good interventionalists or are they just a few?
1:59:12
Say, Cleaver, Cleaver, the pre-woven process or C-C-N-2-C-N-E-Quador, I, Radiolo, was interventionist as part of the terrorist and the original for the end of the school I think that the first
1:59:27
time I was able to do this, I think,
2:00:01
Yeah, he was saying that yes, they have, do they have a neurovascular radiologist and also neurovascular surgeons that can perform the endovascular procedures. But like in all, maybe in many
2:00:15
countries of Latin America, patients just go most of the time to the cervical clipping because of the cost, especially in the private
2:00:27
area Yeah, where they cannot afford. for the costs, so it seems that the economical aspect in Latin America is quite crucial for determining the treatment of the patients. Excellent points. Okay,
2:00:42
Astrada, any closing points? Well, the only thing is more logistics. So Jim, the next, and Joham, while we're doing this, I was trying to see if we could contemporaneously translate back and
2:00:54
forth from mainly to Spanish, and I think there's a way, and we'll see if we can do it the next time. It may have to be set up prior to the meeting start, but I'll see if we can get that done.
2:01:07
Yes. Okay. Yes, I think the most important thing was to share the knowledge what they have and what the others have. I think Giancarlo had one last question or one last comment. No, there was a
2:01:21
question in the chat from Dr. Ramirez about the mortality rates I think he's talking about microsurgical, creeping and volatization according to whether the other reason was rupture and rupture.
2:01:36
Well, in our series, the overall mortality rate was 5
2:01:45
that in this case, one patient died almost. I don't know in the other of Dr. Cleber. And June, Carlo, there's a discussion we have an SI digital, at SIdigitalorg, about
2:02:04
aneurysms with Raphael Tomargo, he's from Johns Hopkins, and Eric Nussbaum and myself, and Raphael presented a study of what their occurrence rate, is the repeat treatment rate was for surgery
2:02:20
with coiling, and also surgery, and he came out with a figure That was about 20. which is, I think, the first time that's ever been published with surgery, it might be eight percent. But it's
2:02:32
just a
2:02:35
piece of information to know because if we follow them long-term, they may need some other treatment or some additional treatment. That's the point, okay? Yeah, and it would depend on the
2:02:49
location. I think the economy and your business may be more prone to that. I think it's a good point Okay, I think it's terrific. Thank you so much, Johan, for doing an outstanding job, putting
2:03:01
this together. And we hope people enjoyed it. And we look to see you a month from the last Sunday of February, okay? Yes. February
2:03:22
recording case the CC on this one ah.
2:03:49
So thank you very much to everybody, and you are welcome to share your cases The next time, and next, see you next, the last Sunday of February. And just remember, and just remember one of, and
2:03:59
one of
2:04:05
the our goals is to help each other. So if you would like to, we're not gonna do tariffs or all the, any of those. So if you, if we can work together and help each other as a continent, this
2:04:20
would be fantastic Whether Africa or Latin America or Canada or Europe. You know what I mean? So okay. Thank you. Okay. Thanks all
2:04:33
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